Any Obama Church Fans...Yet??

I'll admit up front that I haven't seen the inside of a church in more than a minute.  Not too much a fan of the organized religion.  Sure, I believe in God and maybe even Heaven and Hell.  Even got my own Bible laying around the house.  But I have so much trouble suspending all common sense and following someone else's interpretation of the Bible.  To be honest, the Bible reads like a fairy tale to me.  It's like, if all of humanity was destroyed except a small group, they could find a copy of the Bible and a Harry Potter book and not know which one is a religious text.  But that's just me.  Please refrain from trying to save my soul in the comments section.  Simply pray for me in private.  Thanks!

I have two issues with the 'Chuch' is: Gays and Money.  NOTE:  These are not what keeps me from being there on Sunday mornings, Bible Study on Wednesdays, and choir rehearsal on Thursdays and Saturdays.  I would think that if church is supposed to be a safe place for everyone, this would include gays.  And if churches are in the business of saving souls, wouldn't those gay souls be right up there at the top of the Who Needs Saving list??  Wouldn't churches have ministries whose sole purpose was to lead the gays away from the pink pulsating disco light and into the light of the Lord??  It would seem logical right??

They act like everyone in church is on the Lord's path.  Like nobody sitting there isn't doing some type of wrong.  So why can't these other wrong-doers posing as do-gooders sit side-by-side with same sex doers??  Nobody is without sin.  And aren't all sins pretty much on the same level??  Is adultry a greater sin than being gay??  I think not!!  I don't recall ever seeing it plainly written that being gay is wrong.  I know there are places in the scripture that we can interpret to mean being gay is wrong.  But you could just as easily interpret it in some other way. 

Maybe, just maybe if the 'flock' really believed that all that prayer they do works, then they would accept gays and simply pray for them.  Who knows, maybe it's praying that turned Al Reynolds (Starr Jones' husband) from a flaming ball of fire to the shiney lipped, posing as straight, married divorced man he is today.

My other issue is money.  Yeah I know you're supposed to give your 10%.  But what turns my stomach is when I see ministers getting fancy cars for their birthdays when that money could be spent on child care for poor parents!  It burns my toast that nobody questions it.  It makes me knit my brow at how the pastor can be living in a phat house, driving phat cars, taking phat vacays, all on the church's dime.  I know being the pastor is his job.  Pay him a flat salary, maybe give him a company car!!  But that company car should be a mini-van or Ford Taurus!!!  But giving him HOUSES, high end premium driving machines (not cars) is ridiculous.  He can only live in and drive one house and car at a time--especially when his 'flock' is making ends meet as they stress to give up their 10%! 

Being in the hope business is big money.  And maybe that's why so many hustlers/pimps end up with their own church.  Any half-way good hustler can grab a group of folks and use himself as the example of how the Lord can change a sinner to a man of the cloth.  The people will buy it because they are hopeful.  And it's that hope that will land that hustler at the podium stacking paper while the types of people who used to admonish him hang on his every word.  I'm not saying every minister is this way.  Quit the contrary.  It's just those that are, I don't care for.

Tithe, sure!  But where's the oversight??  I mean REAL oversight??

Comments

[Profunksticated]

Ms. Smart,

I call myself a Christian, but recently, every time I see a bar, convenience store, supermarket or warehouse converted to a church, I think, "One more building off the tax rolls."

As far as interpreting the Bible, there were things I heard as a kid that didn't make sense, like Jonah being swallowed, then vomited by the big fish. I readily admit to struggling with whether to read the Bible literally or allegorically.

I do agree that a minister should be paid a salary, at least six figures, which I believe to be commensurate with the 24-7 nature of leading a flock.

And let me ask you this: Should tithes be on the gross or the net?

[Ted]

For the gay question, see Leviticus 18:22; it is an abomination... but so are tattooss and shaving and women on their period, so take it for what it's worth. For the tithing question, giving a tenth of your gross income/harvest is an old testament practice; In the New Testament, it only states things like "give cheerfully."

I'd offer that no one is more accepting of gay people in church than the Black church. Most black churches are heavy New Testament believers, and gay isn't mentioned there, only love and faith.

And the Black megachurch has taken over the nation. Many of them are quick to preach the "prosper gospel:" if you just believe, the Lord has a check for you. But it's interesting that in the pursuit of riches, none of them seem to abide by the scripture that states it's harder for a rich man to get into heaven than it is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Pastor should recall that when he is demanding a $750K/year salary and selling multimedia products for profit.

[sherri]

Thoe things should not keep you from finding and joining a church IF that's what you want to do.

Some churches do try to "save souls" or convert when it comes to their gay members. Other churches except homosexuals as part of the flock, period.

Not all churches believe in the 10% or the prosperity gospel. There are plenty of churches that spend a great deal of money on mission work. That could be anything from schools here, to running water programs in under developed countries.

I'm Catholic and grew up going to Catholic school. My school and church background taught contextualism as opposed to the literal interpretation of the Bible. So instead of just accepting Moses parted the Red Sea, we understood why the sea was red and the tidal system and how it could be possible that at a certain place on the river bank during a particular tidalal period, people could pass from one side to the other. The point of the story wasn't really divine intervention on Moses part -- to us.

Either way, if you want it, there is something out there for just about everyone. ;-)

[Ms. Smart]

Gross or net? Heck if I know. BTW, welcome back to the blog!

[Ms. Smart]

You bring up good points about tattoos, etc. It's a perfect example of how modern day folks pick and choose things to follow. Then there's the piece about things coming from the New versus the Old Testament. Again, let's just choose the stuff we want to follow from each testament. Yeah, that'll work.

As far as the Black church accepting, I don't think they are any more accepting that the secular world where it's OK to be gay so long as you don't act gay. It's like, stay in your place (the choir director, usher board), be gay but don't BE gay around us.

I do wonder about the multimedia products. Those books and cd's are they being produced by a company owned by the church?? Or are they produced by the pastor. Who gets the loot?? If it's the pastor, does he donate some of the gains to his church?? Like maybe 10% at least?

[Ms. Smart]

Second sentence of second paragraph. Those aren't the things that keep me away but they are the two of my top five questions that go hard holy rollers seem unable or unwilling to discuss logically. All their 'research' is based on what Pastor Brown said. Whatevs. Get a mind.

[Honest]

Dude I was just thinking about gays and the bible and what not this morning when I saw my lesbian neighbors leaving their house with their son. I was wondering why they couldn't just get married like anyone else so when it came to their son he could be secure and that they could be secure.

Who said that "Religion is the opium of the masses"? You know what I think, I think people should do what they want but should not think about telling others what they should or shouldn't do.

[Ms. Smart]

I think that was Karl Marx.

Oh and you just said people should do what they want and not tell other folks what to do. But didn't YOU just tell others what to do? LOL

[Ted]

Honest, the REAL question is who is reading Leviticus 18:22 on your celebrity CD bible?!!? LOL

It HAS to be Samuel L Jackson. I can hear him screaming: "Don't have the gay secks!! It is an ABOMINATION!!" lmao

[Ms. Smart]

Quietly, I was wondering too about her Bible on CD.

[Honest]

haha! I sure did. I

[Honest]

LMAO! I'll have to check on that.

[WuDaMan]

You got some points. like w/ the money yeah if the church (members) are making ends meet and the pastor (if his only income is full time ministry) is pulling big bank. Yeah there's cause for concern sans him not acquiring said goods prior to current position.

Hm @ the gay issue. I have an uncle whose brother is a notable out gay priest in the Episcopalian faith. & it is easier to point to someone else's splinter than to pay attention to your own plank (meaning if it ain't your problem it's that much easier to point the finger and say wrong wrong wrong).

I think your issues w/ the church stem from people trying to live out the Gospel w/o being versed enough. You know a little bit of knowledge. "study to show thyself approved." & you're right about the bible and Harry potter as witchcraft is a "faith" in its own right.

*off to do research on starting a polygamous family* What!?! Jesus ain't say you couldn't... lol

[WuDaMan]

Oh and the word does say bring your time talents and tithes. I believe any can stand in each other's stead.

[Ms. Smart]

Which is why I'd rather give my melodic Z-flat to the choir than my 10% in loot!

[Ms. Smart]

I am getting t-shirt printed that says, "What? Jesus ain't say I COULD'T do it!"

[WuDaMan]

Word. In the Catholic church they are all good w/ letting people tithe via charitable donations (they like to say 40 60% split w/ 60% going in they basket) But it it what it is.

& them Z-flats, Z-flats is hot man. They call em Z-flats but they where stilettos, snuggie robes & do the Stanky leg. LMBO must quitchu!

[Pserendipity]

Gross. Render to Ceasar what is Ceasars AND to God what is Gods.

[Pserendipity]

I've attended Church since I was small, and I still do. I've never once heard the Pastor preach the "prosperity gospel". I've never heard any Pastor preach that. Honestly, I thought it was just a TV/megachurch thing.

I've also never been to or around a Church that shunned Gay people, or treated them any differently than the next man.

I don't think that there is such a big divide in the Old and New Testament. The New Testament teaches love and faith, but it never says that you have to accept people living in sin. The WORLD teaches acceptance of people doing what they want to do and living how they want to live and tries to put that on the Bible. The Bible never said that you have to bow down to the ways of the world in order to love the people in it.

[Ms. Smart]

Humh. An interesting thing I didn't add to this is that I was raised going to church and I do intend to raise my kids doing the same. To me, it provides a certain level of ____. <--Can't think of the word. And this is why it's important to me to be with someone who is on the same page there. Someone who will not trip about having to 'interview' churches and find one that will suit our family's needs.

[Profunksticated]

Hello, I also have heard from one church-goer that you should tithe on your net. Her reasoning is how are you going to tithe on what you don't have (deductions, etc.)?

I think it all comes down to giving cheerfully, because if you give grudgingly God's not gonna want your tithe/offering.

[Profunksticated]

Hello, again.

What do you mean by "accepting?" If people want to live in sin, what can I do about it except pray for them?

Frankly, I think we all swim in sin in that a minister once defined sin as anything that separates you from God. And He knows there's plenty in this world -- try employment -- that separates us from Him.

[Profunksticated]

Nice to be back, Ms. Smart.

[Pserendipity]

I have heard that and know that some people suscribe to it, but have been taught that you tithe on your gross because God gave you ALL of it. If God didn't give me a check, I wouldn't have any deductions or retirement or insurance or anything else.

Not trying to be curt here, but that deductions argument doesn't even work with child support.

I'm by no means a holy roller, just saying what I've always been taught and understanding that there are different strokes for different folks. But, I feel you on the cheerful giving.

[Pserendipity]

Hmmm, what I mean is that I can love a person that sins, but I don't have to agree with/support/ignore the behavior. I whoeheartedly agree that the BEST thing that you can do is pray for them. I guess it's like I understand that your choice is to be a gay, but I'm not going to be coming to your wedding or lending my support your cause because the world says that it's okay.

[Pserendipity]

That's understandable. It wasn't until my son was born that I really became "involved" in going to church again. Maybe the word that I would use would be "fundamental" -- if that even fits. From going to Church, he has a fundamental knowledge of what is right and what is wrong, and what it means to obey, and what it means to know that God loves him, and what it means that he loves God. It is rather hard to put into one word.

[sherri]

I've never heard any priest say anything about tithing, 10%, or 40% vs 60%. Just want to clarify that point in relation to the Catholic church. We don't tithe. We collect offerings. Good works is important in the Church. My experience has been that that is pushed/valued more than $$ in the colection basket. Anybody can write a check, but that doesn't cut it in terms of our responsibility in the world.

[WuDaMan]

Are you a practicing Catholic? It's cuz they mail them to your house w/ your name on them. & I'd say that Catholics value the action you take out of the compasion of your heart. & we do so tithe

[ames]

I think most churches have tithes, offerings and pastoral offerings. If folks appreciate the pastor and think he is deserving of fancy stuff it is their money to give.

Pastors have a heavy burden. If you believe in the Bible, then you know Pastors will be judged more harshly. It says pastors blood will be required if they fail to warn the people and they shall die, which means hell.

You are only responsible for your own soul. A pastor is responsible for every soul in his congregation. If a hazzard of the job is hell, and I feel like they care for my soul, I want to give them good things and I want them to have good things. I want my kids nanny to have good things because she cares for my child. Its normal to want to bless the folks who care for what is important to you.

A lot of pastors are hustlers but I notice the hustlers tend to have a great falling and then they will still have to deal with God's punishment from failing to warn people.

[CoolAC]

This was a good post. It reflects lots of my feelings about organized religion. (People KILL in the name of religion & its ok? Sigh)

As far as the preachers getting HUGE gifts from the congregation on his birthday & anniversary...at the MEGA church that I grew up in, it was the congregation showing their appreciation for his service. Like a Bonus or something. I always thought it was a crock of ish since he already had a NICE car. You would think that he would GIVE it away to his least fortunate member (WWJD?). But no, he kept it & the church got his wife a matching one for her birthday & they got personalized plates & parked them infront of the church. But that story is from when I was a teen. The pastor has a private jet now. *shaking head* And of course the pastor says "if you sacrifice, give, pray, and walk in the Lord as I do God will bless you the same way." In that case...all the people who have been going to that church and giving 10% for 25+ years (like my mom) just aren't doing it right because she doesn't have a jet yet. *eyeroll*

[WuDaMan]

It is great that you would pray for your friends living in sin. But I doubt that if the decon board decides to have regular swingers parties that they are just going to pray for them. There should be consequences and reprocutions the specific word brought to their faces.

& that quote is being taken out of context. "sin = anything that seperates you from God" You can never be separated from God the psalms say if I climb the highest of mountains or swim to the deepest of seas God is still there. I think that quote is intended to keep your heart's affections directed toward God.

[Ms. Smart]

Well if the uncle feels being gay is a sin,just because his brother is gay doesn't make it less of a sin. I take issue with people picking and choosing which sins are greatest and then expecting me to follow their lead...blindly.

And wouldn't your uncles brother be your uncle too?

[Ms. Smart]

I like the idea of doing more for the community. There's a non-demon I've gone too that encourages you to join different ministries and work in the community through those. Yes they still take a collection but they only do it once and the emphasis isn't on the $$.

[Ms. Smart]

"I guess it's like I understand that your choice is to be a gay, but I'm not going to be coming to your wedding or lending my support your cause because the world says that it's okay."

I completely get this and seriously have struggled with if I really would go. I mean, I don't go to baby showers for the unmarried. I buy a gift but it's no cause for me to eat cake. But that's my choice and nobody can force me to attend because they 'think' I should.

[Ms. Smart]

Interesting point about anything that separates you from God.

[Ms. Smart]

Nobody said their burden wasn't heavy. In fact, at least one person said they should get at least a six fig salary.

AS for the bonuses, I think of them just as corporations. Are these earned bonuses? Does Pastor Jenkins get a 7 series if he preaches so well the congregation meets their monthly financial goals 9 months out of the year? Or does he get his 'bonus' if he convinces the flock that he is far-far above them and far-far more deserving of life's 'good' things??

[Ms. Smart]

And if your mother had invested that 10% for 25 years or even put it in a savings account, she would be 'blessed' with more money today. She'd still be sacrificing but it would be for her own financial benefit. Is that so wrong? Or would it be wrong for the church to say, "Give us only 5% and put the other 5% away."

[WuDaMan]

I don't know what that first paragraph is saying.

@ the question yeah he is my Mom's sister's husbands brother. Tadaaah

[Pserendipity]

I think that people get tithing confused with an act of offering. Tithing is an INWARD act of faith. God said that if you give, he would open up the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing that YOU won't be able to receive. Paying tithes means that you have the faith that God will take care of you, not that you're saying "Well, God, I'll give you 5% but keep the other 5 for myself because I really don't trust you to bless me like you said you would." God promised an abundant life if you trust him enough to give your 10%, not if you second guess him.

Imagine the blessing that mom would have had had she given the full 10% and trusted God, instead of the bank, to max it out.

[sherri]

Yes, I am. Mail what to your house? The offering envelopes? Mine are picked up at the parish after mass and there is nothing on them to suggest 10% or 40/60 or anything like that. I've never, ever heard of the offering refered to as tithing. I've never been in mass and had the priest or deacon talk about how much one should "offer".

Also, in Catholicism, it is not about the goodness of ones heart. That implies it is not an obligation but rather a choice. Good works is a requirement, it is our purpose in being here.

Not to take up a debate on Catholic theology, although it is interesting, but I've never heard or seen what you are referencing. If you are Catholic and that's what you've seen, I'm very surprised.

[sherri]

Sorry, I can't get with this.

[Ms. Smart]

Some churches mail you the envelopes to tithe. I'm sure all this is unfathomable to you. But it's happening probably at a not-Catholic church near you.

[CoolAC]

Oh you know I calculated it...it makes me ANGRY to know how much she has given, yet her savings is NOWHERE near that much. I've advised her to stop & catch up her savings until she retires, but she won't. So, I asked her once she retires & needs help with her Mortgage if the Church will help her? (Of course, she gives me the side eye. Like don't question My church.) But the church should be able to right? They should be able to dish out a couple thousand a year in her old age if she needs it right? Somehow I doubt they will do this. I've never heard of the church paying people's utilty bills when they come in & pray or testify about having their lights off. Preacher usually just says "have faith God will answer your prayer". UGH!

[sherri]

Snippy??

It's fathomable. But the PP and I were discussing the Catholic church. At least I assumed that's what he was referring to since that's the topic of my response. See second sentence.

[WuDaMan]

yeah the offering envelopes. I am an actively practicing catholic. I have worshiped in many Catholic edifaces from cathedrals to chappels. & where your right it isn't something that is regularly spoken of. I have heard it mentioned though in a homily by a priest.
I'm not saying that you tithe out of the goodness of your heart. Not at all. I'm saying you give out of the compasion you feel in your heart for Christ and his people.

[Ms. Smart]

I wasn't being snippy at all. Hell, I would say the same thing to Honest since she didn't grow up going to church. It IS unfathomable to some. But it's happening. In the church I grew up in we had different colored enveloped for every different fund (building fund, etc.). When I got older I went to a friends (smaller) church and was shocked that they only asked for money ONCE. I told her how we did...It was unfathomable to her. It's happening.

*wonders if they've stepped up their game to do electronic bank account deductions

[Profunksticated]

A "choice" to be a gay? So does that mean I made a conscious "choice" to be a straight?

[LP]

As a catholic, I will have to agree with sherri... Tithing is definitely not enforced. I haven't tithed in god knows how long. My mom often "tithes" for us but it really isn't a requirement per se... It helps the church do all they have to do (schools, priests livelihood, etc...) but there is no set amount.