Show Up Then

Note:  I'm changing my publish time from midnight to something in the morning. You're welcome.

I did not read the book, see the play, or see the movie.  I won't use the title because I'ont want folks coming here looking to discuss the movie.  Instead, I'd like to discuss the uproar about the portrayal of Black men in the movie.  Please keep in mind that I am currently reading (when I go to the salon and am not busy running my mouth and tweeting), Eugene Robinson's Disintegration.  SoJo and Ted are supposed to be reading it too so we can have an e-book club.  Feel free to join up. 

Basically ER's book is one about 'class' (socioeconomic) in the Black community and how it has changed the landscape of 'Black' in America.  And I find the discussions about the movie are broken down that way.  The middle class men, the ones with the biggest complaint, don't want to be lumped into the same category of the men in the movie.  This is interesting because some of the same behaviors they complained were displayed in the movie are the very same behavior that cross class.  Furthermore, for all the anger about Black men's portrayal in media, there doesn't seem to be that same level of outrage for what's going on with Black men in America. 

All the behaviors in the movie (I'm basing this on what other's have read) are behaviors that the men don't complain, get outraged, when their friends and associates are doing those exact things.  When their friends are abusive (verbally, emotionally, and physically) to women where is their outrage?  When their sons are womanizers, where's the outrage?  When the young men within their reach are making babies, not providing for them financially or emotionally, where's the outrage?

Where is the outrage when nasty articles are written about Black women?  Hell even in the blogosphere, I'm surprised that men are such sheep who only get up in arms about things if they feel it directly affects how they are viewed. 

I'ont feel like finishing this but I think y'all get the point.

Comments

[onefromphilly]

What's the timetable for reading and discussing Eugene Robinson's "Disintegrationg ".

I'd like to join but I don't have the book yet.

IMO men were NOT the focus of the movie nor the book. The focus of the movie was women and the choices made, good or bad. Some of theose choices involved men. It was NOT about the Men. Men really need to get over themselves.

[Ms. Smart]

We don't have a time scheduled yet. Those two don't even have the book (yet). And yes, I agree that men need to get over themselves and stop being so tender.

[SoJo]

I just ordered mine this wknd and it should be here sometime this week. Like I snuck and said on Twittuh, we should have a Skype book club w/ The Tribe. Maybe you can intro w/ a post or something and discuss some of what folks say in the comments if they can't Skype.

I also think that this is a great idea to do quarterly ....

[Honest]

Do men even dress down their peers for bad behavior? If a dude knows his friend is cheating on his GF w/out protection is he dressing him down the way some women will dress her female friend in the same situation?

I haven't read the book nor will I and I probably won't go see the movie. I don't like going to see a movie that will have me in tears for the entire length. I do know that the book/play was written in the 70s and based on the outcries people are thinking this is a plot from 2010 instead of 30+ years ago. Clearly men have been behaving badly since the days of Adam and Eve not sure why there's an uproar.

[Ms. Smart]

Or I can assign YOU the task of organizing the Skype mtg?

[GeckoGirl]

Sign me up for the e-book club. Of course, I need to get the book.

[Ms. Smart]

I don't think they do 'dress them down'. Hell look at some of the questionable behavior we've seen.

[Ms. Smart]

I think this group of blog readers/commenters have the critical thinking skills that would make for a great discussion. Now head on over to the amazon.

[SoJo]

Re: the post. Black folk in particular become tender when they feel as though they are being directly attacked - even when it's not about "us". I wish that we all could remove the emotion and have direct, impactful non-judgmental discussions on both ends.

Watching Private Practice this weekend, both Charlotte and the kooky psychologist (can't remember her name) were able to bond over having been r.a.p.e.d. I assume that the kooky chick's attacker was white as was Charlotte's. But you don't see white men protesting the portrayal of them as a group.

All of the women on the show own their chexuality (and are a tad bit...um...slutty). Same thing w/ S.ex and the City. You don't see white women calling for them to have better role models on TV. They can pick out the scenarios or characteristics that mirror their own experiences and leave the rest at the door.

The striking thing about For Colored Girls is that we ALL knew the women in those situations (or could personally relate). But the truth is, so could women of other races. If everyone would move beyond their ego, we could start having real conversations.

Ehhhh...I feel like I'm rambling in this comment, but...

[SoJo]

*_* #dammit LOL!

[Ms. Smart]

Unfortunately, most people lack the self-control and critical thinking skills to take their person actions out of discussions. Lest we forget the whole NWNW 'discussion' and the cries of 'my baby wasn't a mistake'. This is why I'ont even bother talking to most people anymore. Sometimes I over-hear discussions and I wanna interrupt and just shout, "Shut the fug up! Everything aint about your ego-centric ass." But I don't bother cus I don't care enough.

[KaNisa]

I used to get mad about that...that dudes don't address each other when they do wrong.

It's like hoe strollin'/taking advantage of chicks is a right of passage rather than behavior that shouldn't be celebrated.

Prime example is that video where a chick walks through a group of dudes and one of them pulls up her dress. She stared dude down and tried to walk off, but dude pulled DOWN her dress, pulling her so hard she lost her balance and fell.

Not only did the dudes not help her up or anything, they laughed and took pictures. No one said that wasn't cool.

I don't know what I'll do if I have a boy. I still side-eye my dude sometimes for being a hoe-strolling Kappa back in his day.

How can I teach my son to be smart about where he puts his pe-nus and not be a hoe/use his position to take advantage of females?

Even the best dudes go through that phase...

[sherri]

Not all guys go through that phase

[Ms. Smart]

Xqizit said years ago that men have great PR. Boy is that ever true. Women believe that, with all the intellect that humans have, men don't have more self control than animals when it comes to chex. It's not a right of passage. It's opportunism at its best (or worst).

[Ms. Smart]

Exactly! But the ones who whore it up are so loud, and the ones who don't are so quiet, that the whores have convinced the world that whoring is something men do and MUST do, and something uniquely connected to manhood.

[SoJo]

Can someone page the men to come add their 2 cents to this discussion? I feel like we're gossiping in the kitchen and they're down in the mancave being really still...or meeting with their PR agent trying to figure out how to respond to today's post. O_o

[SoJo]

I agree. And the ones that don't are not given enough credit because the ones that are running around doing damege are given way too much shine.

[Honest]

haha! For real!

[WuDaMan]

So why do dude's not care about stuff that doesn't directly affect them? They don't know to seek out injustice to fight. Then again how do you recognize a man's outrage?

[SoJo]

"Then again how do you recognize a man's outrage?"

Fair question, Wu. So, how can we tell if these things bother you guys? What should we look for?

[Tsiporah]

Count me in.

[mrcrazyone]

Men do check other men their friends in particular. They do so privately and without fanfare most of the time. Once a man is checked he will either straighten up or keep the information he was checked about to himself. Once you check a man about cheating on his wife you will not be hearing about his late night exploits anymore.
Men that whore are whores. Most men don’t whore but the ones that do…… I am talking about whoring, bedding three or four women at a time changing up the rotation every month or so. They are whores and the women they sleep with know they are whores.

[Anna N.]

On the one hand I feel like if the portrayals don't apply don't be offended. But on the other hand I understand how it feels to be on the receiving end of a societal smear campaign - 2010 wasn't a great year for the Black Woman's pr campaign. And I do wish that men would hold themselves and each other to some higher standards. I've been asking that of men for years - to ask their brethren to do/be better. Women have understood the "birds of a feather" rule for a long time, but a lot of men seem to think that they can fly with the grimiest birds ever and not be associated with their stink.

[WuDaMan]

I got to speak for everybody? Well as a black man if you get invited to look at the little jar where all the ill feelings have been shoved deep down into subject to release at an unknown time and place resulting in a N!99@ stroke. You may get an explanation or talked to about it. Though we are conditioned to not openly emote. I'm kind of like Dick Gregory though, "marching was a great tool but not any more." Like people have grown so self centered and autonomous that it is a great event to be invited into someone's circle of trust. People scared of these hurt feelings. Dudes nowadays try to just be not that unless they condone it an then they hide it (i.e. a cloaker). I don't know lady. Like I live this life not watch it all the time.

[SoJo]

Yeah, you're the official spokesperson since you're the only one that's ventured out from the mancave today. :-)

I think that you made a good point about how do we know when y'all are outraged, which could lead to good discussion.

Y'all aren't typically conditioned to emote, but what about checking each other amongst yourselves for BS behaviors? Maybe not a global "call to arms" but just in your peer group. Is that taboo from your experience?

[Tiffany In Houston]

I would like to be down with the e-book club thugs! *goes off to Amazon*

I have heard my husband dress down a guy friend before, who was dating our mutual friend at the time. I will say this, seems like men get involved like in this fashion, in particular when it comes to a woman being mistreated by a another man when they KNOW and CARE about the woman in question. Sisters, female cousins and friends seem to fall under this category.

[WuDaMan]

Nah as a matter of fact any black barbershop in these here states of unity. Dude's is getting clowned hard and folks is doing the lap around the shop belly grabbing laugh at the fool who is on blast. Though it is so the smaller circle. & even w/i that smaller circle the offender knows better because most of their admissions are lead by, "I know I ain't right but..." or similar statements. I think mrcrazyone said as much too. Long story short it takes place in small meeting groups. That y'all aren't invited to. Tell you what pick a saturday grab somebody's son and take him to a barbershop and be that spook who sat by the door.

Oh yeah The book sounds cool. Do they have an audio version(George Castaza stand up)? Although I think I have an opinion that I wonder how the author addresses it.

[Ms. Smart]

And this, IMO is a problem. Is one can only care about that which is a close relative, but fug everyone else? Not cool. But I'm not surprised. The Aruh Kelly incident is a prime example. The girl was 'grown' and 'knew what she was doing' because she wasn't related to the dudes. What about being able to see the wrong done to women, scuse me, BLACK women, because they are HUMAN, not cus they are blood?

[Honest]

I know of a few men who have fallen out and it has to do with either $, sleeping with someone's girl, cheating or just being a general a hole to their friend. I've never heard a dude fall out with another dude because of the way they treated a third party.

[BlkBond]

Men dress each other down--In close an familiar settings. Part of the reason the dress down does not take place in public is because:

(a) men want to display solidarity. Even under egregious circumstances, you want the other man to understand that you are still 'together', so as to preserve unity in the long term. That may not be easy for women (Black) to understand, but being a Black Man is a unique and exclusive club that subjects you to all kinds of ish, and you want 'members' to know that they are not alone, better yet, you don't want them to feel alone because that may encourage more of the detrimental behavior (i.e. Me vs. The World mentality).

(b) Men have to be careful when expressing concern rather than disrespect. I don't think alot of women understand the borderline urgency of disrespect among men and how it can change lives. One minute of dressing down could turn into 10 seconds of disrespect which leads to a fight or more serious harm. Seriously. It's not what you do, but how you do it (word to Bahamadia).

(c) Most men recognize their wrong, thus, they simply withhold information until it is too late. Many friends/family don't know about the wrongs committed until after the man has been caught by his woman, kicked out, etc. At this point, you are torn between chastising (which he rightfully deserves) and being a friend (which he may need). Most men, believing that him being caught has leveled the field, choose to be a friend by helping him pick himself up and use this experience as a cautionary tale to remind him of his shortcomings and their support, which usually resonate with that man, but only AFTER the deed has been done (men are stubborn).

[Ms. Smart]

THIS!!!!

[BlkBond]

Man's outrage becomes silence. He's start ignoring you or leave--the room or the conversation. One, because he gets upset and he doesn't want to start yelling. Men only yell so long before we start touching and grabbing, so as to not go there, he will leave.

Men change the subject. If he feels you aren't listening or the issue he has is not being addressed, he will change the subject. Men don't like being ignored AND with no resolve for the issue that's being 'discussed'. I placed discussed in parentheses because often times is someone telling him what he's doing wrong, how he's hurt them, why does he do it, etc. and everytime he tries to explain beginning with point 1, he is given a rebuttal along with a new list of wrongs and he gets frustrated because at that point it is no longer a conversation or discussion, rather a monologue he must listen to.

[Ms. Smart]

Women often want to believe that they are dating the one good guy out of the crew. But if he's telling tales (gossiping to her) about the evil his friends are doing, my logic says 1) he's doing it too 2) the perpetrators aren't hiding their 'sins' because it's acceptable behavior is that crew.

[BlkBond]

It happens, but it's usually within the context of close familiarity (family, friend, etc.)

Reason it doesn't happen is because usually the guy doesn't know what the truth is.

3rd parties often exaggerate situations to portray one side less favorable than they may actually be; the guy on the outside, not wishing to play Columbo in regard to a matter that does not even involve him, just leaves it to the parties involved.

[BlkBond]

Many men see the wrong, however, there seem to be an inherent belief among alot of men that many of these women encourage this also.

For example, take the player. Everyone knows he's a player; yet, women flock to him. After he plays them, they say, "He did me foul! He's a player!!" Yeah, but you knew that right? Everyone knew that. Why do you think girl A stayed away from him? Why do you think girl B is only platonic friends with him?

Past the age of 21, alot of men feel you should be mature and old enough to know who is who and what is what. (right or wrong...it is what it is)

Bond.

[Ms. Smart]

At the center of the situation is a lack of communication skills from both parties. The woman--making heterosexual assumption--doesn't know communication involves listening and the man doesn't know how to get his point across by stopping her from piling on.

[BlkBond]

Not always. Logic would say that he participates or has participates in this behavior--which you would be right for believing; however, in any crew of men, their are often various personalities (player, choir boy, comedian, good guy, thug, etc.) that reflect the facet of each at some point in their life or a portion of them today.

So, for example, the good guy may have some player in him. but the good guy's version of 'player' may be flirting with the girl at work, whereas, the player may be sleeping with 3 women on his job. You do more justice learning and observing the man you're dealing with rather than trying to analyze his friends.

Also, with guys who are not trying to hide their ill behavior-that's usually a cry for help. Difference is, they want a logical and analytical reason for why they shouldn't be doing these things. In college, I decided to go 'all out' when I realized that I would not be Mr. Phi Beta Kappa, no Goldman Sach's position, etc. It became a "damn, what now?" moment. I didn't have the money alot of my peers did, didn't have the connections/influence, etc. but what I did have was my looks and the game. When I was doing my 'player' thing, it wasn't about the women (all the time) rather, searching for fulfillment because I felt I couldn't be the best me. Not that it was right, just sharing my mentality then. I also share this to say that I wasn't purposefully trying to break hearts, but rather make mine whole--and the admiration from my peers, the recognition, luv, respect, etc. that it would garner made me feel like I had my own lane.

Sidebar, I usually look down on people who talk about the friends issues/behavior concerning everything to their SO. Be mindful that that is your friend, not your SO's friend. It can be easy to draw a false perception of someone based on a limited view.

Bond.

[Ms. Smart]

And these same men who are shocked when their beloved turns out to be a whore. I guess they shoulda known better.

[Ms. Smart]

Interesting perspective. It's about compensation in youth but WTF is up with grown-ass men behaving this way. Oh and notice I specifically referred to it as gossiping because that's what it is. And I think some men do it to 1) make themselves look good 2) cus they have feminine gossipy tendencies. Yes I know men talk but that's different that the malicious gossiping abt something the friend has confided in you abt.

[SoJo]

"Once a man is checked he will either straighten up or keep the information he was checked about to himself. Once you check a man about cheating on his wife you will not be hearing about his late night exploits anymore. "

Gotcha. I've seen/heard this before.

[SoJo]

Are these expressions all when related to the opposite sex or how you all deal with each other as well? I ask because I wonder how (or maybe a better question is IF) you all express outrage among yourselves for some of the things that TPS mentioned in her post. And if so, is it this way or differently?

[SoJo]

For those of you that are interested in the Skype convo, e-mail me your info: [email protected]

I'll set it up as soon as TPS, Ted and I coordinate the deets.

[Tiffany In Houston]

I see what Bond is talking about because I had a discussion with him about another mutual friend, who has decided that he wants to give it around go round with his wife and now has the unenviable position of having to tell the women that he's been messing with of his decision.

I was jumping all on the case of our friend and saying how he was wrong for leading these women on. My husband was of the opinion that if a man is upfront about his situation and the woman chooses to indulge anyway, then the "first do no harm" clause doesn't apply any more. Man logic is: I told you the game, you chose to play anyway so don't get mad if you take an L on this one.

I couldn't really argue with him. Then I reflected back on times in my past, where a man had given me the straight dope and I heard what I wanted to hear anyway.

I still wasn't happy about how our friend handled things, but was he really wrong??? *shrugs*

[Ms. Smart]

This goes back to something I said last week. If a man does right (tell the truth, do the right thing) because he HAS to and not because he is of strong character, then I'd just as well not bother. I am more disappointed by a man who pretends to be of sound character than a man who just aint shyt from the door.

[BlkBond]

It's still compensation: a lot of these guys many women are chasing didn't get cool until they got a salary. I hear all about how they 'missed out' by studying, working, monogamous relationships, etc. Now that they have the resources to 'date' on terms that mirror their fantasies, or under the belief that they are assets, you are seeing a lot of this behavior play out well into the late 30's and 40's.

Often, these are they guys that women want though, so the market drives the demand. IOW, you have good men (who are really good) dressing as wolves simply to gather attention of women, because a wolf is the only one who gets noticed.

Bond.

[BlkBond]

they are mostly with the opposite sex. When deal with each other, we usually believe that if the conversation take a turn toward 'bad' we will fight (and most men are willing to), so that's always on the table with another man. With a woman..eh, no. Then we'll be talking about abuse...so, most men feel the 'silence' or leaving is actually for her benefit. I can't stress enough how once that testosterone gets flowing a debate with light jokes can turn into a shooting. Again, that's hard for many women to understand, but be mindful that you don't understand because you are not a man.

Men do express outrage over the depictions of women. However, what happens is usually someone comes along and proves the 'stereotype' or bad perception correct. For example, I remember debating in the barbershop about how women seek men w/ money in large part because they have been marginalized by society (i.e under paid, under educated, etc.). Of course, ninjas were arguing me down that these women were 'scandalous', 'money hungry', etc. Ironically, in walks this girl to get her hair done and the first thing she asks the beautician was who was driving the Navigator on rims. I looked foolish. This scenario plays out more than you think, under more circumstances than you know.

At that point, I just shut up, because that girl's presence completely destroyed my point. The foul part was that she didn't even understand why she thought highly of someone with a luxury car, so it became more apparent that the guys wouldn't understand either.

Guess that's why men usually try to appeal to middle class+ women in some hopes the information will trickle down or that these women will take steps toward becoming understanding and more compassionate to help those that really need it...

[BlkBond]

They aren't shocked--more disappointed, but even then they realize that the universe will right itself. At that point, they only hope and pray to not bare the brunt of all the ills they have projected into the world through the action of their daughters, nieces, etc.

[BlkBond]

When I was in 8th grade a girl came to my house to have sex with me. I realized that I didn't want to have sex with her because I didn't like her.

2 years later in high school, the same girl was telling a large group of girls that I was 'scared of that p***y' in her version of what happened.

How should I have handled that? How should a man maintain his respect, masculinity, stay true to himself, his heart, and still keep his dignity among other women?

You answer, then I'll tell you what I did (laughs)...

Bond.

[Ms. Smart]

OMG yes. The nerd in HS loses his damn mind. But so does the ugly duckling girl.

[Ms. Smart]

So basically, discussions between men are always like spades games--one renig away from the cops being called?

[Ms. Smart]

Some old southern folks believe whorish men always have daughters first...I'm my father's first and he says my existence changed his game. Granted he was married with me on the way by 18 so he didn't get the change to show his ass on an adult level. But my mother has a couple of scandalous stories abt my daddy when they were in HS. He hates that I know these stories.

[Ms. Smart]

Fun. Did you have a girlfriend two years later? Well while I wait for you to get back on that, you coulda said she smelled 'strange'. Keep in mind, I'm trying to think of the skills available to an 8th grade boy. LOL but I get that a lot of times, it's about saving face.

[BlkBond]

yeah, damn near. They can go as planned or someone may take words as offensive and there will be problems. With men, one that button gets pushed, it's hard to turn off, so one two friends are arguing over one doing a woman wrong, then it later comes out that the woman is enabling the situation, the other men observing feel like "damn, a friendship was ruined because a woman wasn't truthful/she played victim." So that causes resentment and then forms a reminder to all who observed (i.e "remember what happened between Joe & Cris") which further keeps men from involving themselves in future situations.

[BlkBond]

I didn't have a girlfriend--but we're talking about someone doing the right thing because it's right, not because he has to, so it shouldn't/wouldn't have mattered.

Yeah, I could have said she smelled strange (which she would have taken as an insult) then she would have insulted me with the easiest insult at that point...questioning my sexuality/calling me a name, etc.

So you see, it's not so 'easy' like women would like to believe it to be.

What happened: I told her there was no way in hell I was scared of any 'p***y', and I pulled my pants down and reached into my boxers (in front of everyone) and told her we could go into a corner/bathroom right now. (I was a wild one). Needless to say, I was never questioned like that again...

[Ms. Smart]

Today that right there woulda gotten you thrown out of school and charges pressed against you.